I need your help! What looks do you hate in your swing?

+Tyler F

I swear I'm only a suffering narcissist when it comes to the golf swing:

(1) I hate how my front leg/knee tends to buckle - a la Bubba Watson - when approaching the top of the backswing
(2) I hate how my arms don't stay extended well into the follow-through, past the 3 o'clock position - unlike Rory McIlroy or Jason Day
(3) I hate how my front leg 'buckles' slightly post bracing & impact before straightening for good at the finish position - a la Dustin Johnson
(4) I hate how my trail foot doesn't unweight completely when finishing the follow-through (common one I'm sure)
(5) I hate how my swing 'looks' slower on video than it feels when I'm swinging as hard as I can

+Tyler F
I am 75 no body rotation and therefore I don't hit through the ball

+Tyler F
I hate the look of "humping the ball" in the downswing. I don't do it as much as I use to, but I want it gone. All gone!

+Tyler F
I hate my collapsing left ankle on the driver takeaway, my upper body lunge on irons, my lack of open hips at impact, and my "senior" follow-through with the longer clubs (sawed off). I need *your* help!

+Tyler F

+Tyler F

Hey Tyler. Greetings from sunny Australia.

While it’s still work in progress, I hate the slide/sway in my swing. I want to be able to make sure I can post up on left leg - all else being equal - with body rotation and balance.

And being tooooo steep on my swing is another ‘hate.’

Cheers

Glenn M

+Ed C Thank you for the response, perhaps I should have also asked you what you love in your swing ;)

+Ed J Thanks for the response, I'll add it to my list. In the meantime, I'd consider you experimented with turning out your lead foot. Also, make sure the clubface in a position that allows you to rotate through impact.

+John C That humping look can be a tricky one. It helps shallow the club, it creates space for early arm straightening, it helps close the face quickly, it puts less demand into hip flexibility...

The big thing with that one is finding a slow motion drill where you don't have any hump and seeing what happens (bad contact, face open, no feeling of power etc). That experiment helps you figure out why it's likely a part of your swing.

+Patti D I can visualize most of those looks, but what is the collapsing ankle in the takeaway? do you have a picture of it?

+Glenn M Greetings Glenn. Enjoy your trip. Thanks for participating. I know that slide/lunge look is something you're working on. The two components to the lunge/steep pattern are the positions and the timing. The positions both require more wipe (less at the ball) and the timing requires later firing (about half way down instead of right at the top). Safe travels!

+Tyler F
Short game,I hate that my right hand wants to dominate. Get fat or bladed shots making short game so inconsistent.

Flat pivot with the shut face and across the line, leading to steep and deep pull down in transition and finally that look where the trail shoulder protracts in the early follow through

+John R Tnaks for participating. The inside takeaway can come from too much lead shoulder rotation, not early enough arm lift, too level a shoulder turn, too much upper body sway off the ball, or too much right arm bend.

Personally, I think the second picture isn't that bad. But that's why I started this thread, everyone has different looks they hate ;)

+Tyler F
Thanks Tyler. I think it's a really interesting topic, too. Especially since even if my ball striking is perfectly on point, I'll still cringe when I see myself in that position. We all do have that thing.

When I visit you in February, we can work on it and you can help me get to the point where I also agree that it's not so bad :)

+Dieter O Thanks for participating.

1 - open face in the takeaway usually comes from leading the movement with the arms and hands instead of the feet (left foot specifically). That could relate to your tendency to use the arms more in transition.

2 - Early extension is a pesky one. See my answer above on that one.

3 - This is probably the trickiest one. It requires a different timing of force than you're used to. The downswing would likely feel like a 1-2 rather than a single force producing movement. It requires more of the wipe move and more of the movement happening from the hips/legs instead of the shoulders. But again, the biggest difference is that it doesn't feel as powerful to those who like to fire early.

+Gregory D Yes, I don't think anyone thinks their swing is perfect. You just have to know it and it's tendencies :)

Colorful imagery, do you have a snapshot of your swing at impact so I could see that position better?

+Andrew H
No reason to hate what you see. you don't look especially on your left toe; to me it looks like you are rolling your left foot from inside to outside. Not the best for bracing but not a major problem; and as to your right knee position, yours is preferable as you are obviously in the midst of extending which is the correct move from around p6.5 on. I'd like to see your finish as I would like to see if the result is your butt tucked under your pelvis which would be the natural desired endpoint of a swing that has extension of the body through impact as yours appears to. If I had a choice between looking like Adam Scott and Grant Waite, I'd prefer the latter, though I would prefer the bank account of the former.

+Andrew H I agree with Jules on this one. I actually prefer your right leg movement compared to Adams. The left foot indicates a slight compensation for the left hip, but I don't think yours is excessive (like a Jordan Spieth).

But I am curious, what do you think your look prevents you from doing? Does it limit your ability to control path, face, or produce speed?

+Tyler F
That is a great question, going to have to think on it a bit... On video, when I see my right leg straightening like that, it appears to be related to my glutes firing and causing my hips to slightly elevate and move toward the ball instead of staying “deep” and rotating through the hit. I have been working really hard on removing the flip from my release, searching everywhere for the cause... and it looks like to me that the way my hips slightly stall out a touch after impact is prompting a slight flip pattern. Video below if you have time. Fun topic!

+Jules C
Hey thanks for the feedback, much appreciated... Below is a swing from a few days ago, if you get time... Also, I’ll need to admit that I don’t know what 6.5 P means :)

+Andrew H
I think you have a wonderful golf swing. There are so many strong aspects of it; the backswing, the transition; the sequencing. anyone should be able to play great golf with that swing. That said there are two (I think connected) parts of the swing that can be improved upon. They have to do with your release. I put a picture below: that is position 6.5. Let me explain. P1 is address; P2 is shaft parallel in the backswing; P3 is left arm parallel; P4 is the end of the backswing (which varies of course from player to player); p5 is left arm parallel on the downswing; p6 is clubshaft parallel on downswing; p7 is impact; p8 is club parallel post impact; p9 is left arm parallel post impact; p10 is finish.
P5.5. is position midway between p5 and p6 and that is what we think of as the delivery position. P6.5 is midway between p6 and impact, and is exactly where for the very best players the high energy of the release begins.
The more someone stalls, (hip and torso rotation stopping( the earlier the hands begin to release the club. Body stalling is often caused by a clubface that is too open approaching the ball. In the picture below your club is a bit too open to ball and it is just at this point your body stops rotating; and at the same time you'll notice your left leg is not straightening much. Your right leg is, which is the core of your ability to extend into impact , but by comparison your left leg does not straighten nearly as extensively; the body stalls until impact and then you complete your rotation. You can see the same thing in your iron swing from behind. at 5.5 when the club is right across your trail arm (a beautiful position) your club face should be parallel to your spine, but it is more toe up and that is going to encourage the same stall. It's a chicken egg but IMHO I would get the clubface in a position that would encourage rotation and that means at 5.5. I'd like to see it more parallel to the spine. This will encourage rotation; and that would allow you to push your left leg into the ground and up straightening it, adding power and enabling your rotation. it will be a smoother and more powerful swing with a more stable clubface, better flight control and distance with what will feel like a bit less effort. In my mind you are that close I'd love to see what your pitch swings look like; your putting and chip shots. I hope you have occasion to get to Los Gatos to work with Tyler. I am sure with very little instruction and a lot of work you can be a hell of a golfer -- better than either Tyler or I were in our heyday. Certainly better than me.

+Jules C
see how open the clubface is in the iron shot. notice as a consequence your legs are not rotating. they are not far different than they are at p5 left arm parallel which is a great position: arm across your body and your knees are just about parallel (better if they were fully parallel); torso still very much closed to target; so much power stored at this point
Notice finally that between pictures 1 and 3 your torso has unwound (rotated) significantly more than your lower body has: knees v. shoulders Body stops just a bit. Fix the face and the front leg can straighten/brace/rotate and the impact will be more fluid and powerful and more rhythmic and effortless.
Wonder if Tyler sees it similarly.

+Jules C

Really nice of you to take the time to look over my swing, Thank You! I read over your notes several times, awesome stuff, what you are saying regarding my open club face really makes sense. When I sent my swing to Tyler a year ago it was also an area he recommended I look at, among others. I have gone through several stretches working on the motorcycle move and it has been a very tough move for me. I don’t know exactly why, maybe I’m just not doing it correctly. I’ll review Tyler’s videos on it and hopefully pick up on something... I’ve been a GSA member about a year and half I guess, it has been huge for understanding my swing. So yes, I plan to come see Tyler at some point in the future. Again, thank you for the analysis and the encouragement!

+Jules C I enjoy reading your responses to the forum questions. I find them well written and well thought out. My opinion on Andrew H. swing is sometimes pulling the arms can lead to more extension of the lead wrist and an opening/non-closing of the clubface in the downswing. It always seems to get back to how well we can execute the rotation of the body once we have educated the hands and arms. Just my thoughts and welcome anyones responses.

+John C
Thank you for your kind comments. Your position immediately post impact is picture book quality. I'd be surprised were you not one hell of a golfer.
Regarding Andrew's swing, my thoughts are pretty simple. In transition if you flatten the club and you also have your right elbow visible below the left arm (as Andrew does, which is a great move) your clubface will naturally open. And you have to do something to counter that. The easiest and least otherwise disruptive way to that is to twist the shaft (the motorcycle). I prefer a slow and continuing motorcycle rather than a one time aggressive move. It is not the only way. When i worked with Mac O'Grady, he had a very slight flattening, but also a very strong grip which would have the effect of having a clubface less likely to be as open post transition; The other approach is taken by someone like Bradley Hughes (a terrific golfer, good person and the teacher who has saved Brendon on the PGA Tour, is to have much more forearm rotation. These are all preferable to the stall and premature release. For me, golf is like putting together a puzzle. You have to find the pieces that fit together for you. Lots of things will work, but always in conjunction with compatible pieces. The things I like most about Tyler's approach and Mac's (which is different) is their efficiency of motion; the number of pieces that you have to find to work together are relatively minimal and they can be more easily learned and can work together efficiently without much risk of seepage (i.e. wasted energy).

+Jules C Indeed, it is a puzzle and I continue to try to put mine together. There are many Mac stories. Mine is I submitted a request for more information on MORAD from the website years ago and two days later I received a phone call from Mac himself. He spent 2-1/2 hours on the phone with me discussing his quest, the PGA tour and any number of topics that I cannot recall. I was fascinated.
The picture is from a executing one of Tyler's drills, and not my "real" golf swing. I hope my golf course swing will have that look one day.
Good luck with your puzzle.
John

+John C
Hi John. It's not just GG who prefers a C set up. Many teachers have finally gotten away from the Adam Scott paradigm. I would suggest you follow Bradley Hughes site on this. You may have heard of Brad. He won the Australian Masters twice and is currently the teacher who has resurrected the career of Brendon Todd. I know Brad through John Erickson who played on the Australian tour with Brad. Both have a treasure trove of pictures and films of the greats from the last mid century on and the taller rounded back set up was widespread at the time. The general thesis is that this posture places the pelvis under the trunk, relatively level and between the feet, facilitating downswing rotation. Upper body/spine configurations at set up run a continuum from the slouchy C at one extreme to the rigid S at the other. The latter is a nightmare for the lower back and is usually associated with swings that end up with a good deal of right lateral bend which curves the spine unduly and harmfully. Others are welcome to disagree. I have always stood tall to the ball but I have very long arms. I think going all the way to the full slouch may be asking too much, but I find setups that are more like that and less rigid are conducive to pain free golf and sound rotation.

+John C You mention my background, which makes these questions much more challenging than they seem on surface. One phrase I like, "posture is a relationship, not a position". So the right posture can look different on different bodies. The key is getting the right muscles prepped while aligning the geometry for a good path. I think it's easy to make general statements ("straight spine, more rounded, athletic") but practically they are very limited.

If I had to come up with a simple rule, I prefer posture to be on the flexion side of neutral. Neutral is roughly halfway between the range of non-painful movement.

As far as the Rotary Swing guides you set up, I'm not a huge fan of excessive lat activation. I think many golfers who get steep use them too much in transition. But I do look for core/glute engagement. I often test my students to make sure they can use those muscles. If they can't, then forcing a "proper" posture is typically not the most beneficial.

For your last statement (going from rest to active). All tissue has a threshold, if you surpass that threshold, then the tissue is damaged. Rapid speeds can surpass threshold, and the threshold at end range of motion is typically weakest (most susceptible to failure). So in that sense, I do like a ready state as part of the set up. In my in person certification, we spend time helping golfers feel core engagement at set up with something similar to this - https://golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/feeling-one-piece-takeaway/

+Dan M Thanks for participating. Those are a couple of good ones!
1 - Hands toward the ball and steepening comes from too much left shoulder blade retraction or lead shoulder protraction combined with a leftward rotation of the forearms or shoulders. Easy to describe but takes some playing to figure out how to fix it.

2 - Left knee straightening often comes from the core not transferring from the knee to the core. The left knee straightening creates stability at the pelvis instead of using the abdominals. But if you want more specific suggestions, post a picture or video so I can see the exact timing! Thanks.

+Jules C Wise words. I only hate things that directly influence efficiency as well.

Quick clarification - Delivery position is about P5.5, not p6.

With that p6 check point, either the hands aren't enough in front (trail shoulder action) or the body is too far forward (slide lunge). A good check is looking at the grip location compared to the ball. If that is also back, then it's probably shoulder, if it's over the ball, then it's definitely the slide.

+Michael P Thanks for participating. Definitely can use some release work since most of your comments relate to your arms. Two comments to help clarify.

1 - your last point about weight shift,
In the second picture, you see that most of your body is past the ball. That's plenty of weight shift.

2 - In the picture on the left, you can see the dotted box is where the club hits the grass. Be really careful practicing out of long rough as it might give you false feedback as to where the club is hitting the ground.

+Tyler F
Thanks for your feedback...much appreciated. I have some video of my swing at a practice facility hitting on grass vs long grass. May I send this to you? Please advise

+Jules C Thanks for sharing that! Definitely a different position a foot past impact ;)

+Tyler F
yeah; and notice the difference in the right shoulder; and that Mac really gets his torso closer to the ground then pushes up into impact which allows him to keep right elbow bent at impact so arms don't extend until later than mine

+Jules C Definitely. If you were in his body position with your arm motion, you'd hit it 6 inches fat. The images are the timing when your arm appears to start firing compared to when Mac does it. Pretty big differences.

+Nick W Thanks for participating. I'd say there is some classic early extension going on. But the timing of the leg action looks really good. I don't think it actually costs you too much speed, but it might make solid contact harder to achieve.

As far as the finish. I don't dislike the position either. Like some of the other posts I've made, I'll ask what you think that finish position prevents you from doing in your swing?

+Tyler F
Hey Tyler,
Thanks for taking a look! I don't think the finish position prevents from doing anything, but I think it is a little indicative of the early extension pattern and a path that is too in-to-out. I feel like the club comes around my body better when the path is more neutral and the shaft finishes closer to parallel with the ground vs. pointing more down towards the ground in the photos shown. I might be mistaken on the cause/effect relationship here, but that is what it feels like to me.

I'm glad to hear my leg action looks good, and since I filmed this video this summer, I've been working a lot on eliminating early extension and bracing earlier to reduce some of my slide pattern. Hopefully, if I filmed today, I'd have a lot less of both of those problems.

Nick

+David L Thanks for participating.

2 ways to address the stand-up. More left tilt at the top of the swing, or start taller to begin with. Lots of good pieces in that swing, so keep working on it!

+John J Thanks for participating. Given the amount of pelvis rotation in that picture, it looks like you're backswing may be dominated too much by the arm/shoulder movements. With a little more body focus, particularly with side bend, perhaps the
takeaway will have less of a flat look.

+Hans F Thanks for participating. I agree with Jules that the leg issue is more of a backswing issue than a downswing. The squat move in transition looks really good! In the takeaway, there's more of an ankle sway rather than a rotation of the hips. Letting the right leg straighten a bit to help create some depth could help. Try this drill. https://golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/shaft-resisted-rotation-training/

Thanks Guys for Your Help and explain….I totally agree and will work on this at the Range (great Drill Tyler) over the Winter month here in Austria..we are more on the Skis now…...the Video I have sent was made before I joined Your academy and also before I went through 20-30 of Your great drills…….will get back to You with a hopefully much improved move and Video in spring....…... thx Hans

Thanks Guys for Your Help and explain….I totally agree and will work on this over the Winter month here in Austria....the Video I have sent was made before I joined Your academy and also before I went through 20-30 drills…….will get back to You with a hopefully much improved move and Video in spring.... thx Hans +Jules C

+Jules C
That’s fantastic analysis. I’ve never really worked on lower body movements with any precision beyond weight shift.

When should I feel that leg straightening/ pelvis under torso in my downswing?

I really appreciate your thoughts.

+Michael G Thanks for participating. I agree with everything Jules said, it's a great description of the pivot and how it will complement the release drills you've worked on. The legs should start pushing vertically around the delivery position. Right about where this photo is taken.

+Tyler F
Thanks Tyler. I’ll start working on the legs and then send you some videos for a lesson. Talia has been progressing well by the way!!

And thanks again Jules