shaft shallowest at top of swing

I'm somewhat in the same boat as you. I define shallow based on the clubhead distance to the ball at any given height. And the shallowing movement of transition, when the COM drops under the hand path vector is a key type of shallowing. So I'm confused as well as how they define the top as the most shallow.

Based on the reply you posted, it seems like they are talking about the pitch of the shaft, which would get shallower for most during the transition, even with some arm lowering. Shallowing has become a hot topic, but I think with everyone having different definitions, and possibly mechanisms, it's easy to be confused.

If the goal of transition is to help set up the parameters for a better flat spot, then possibly the reason and mechanism to shallow would make more sense. Lowering the club with the arms is a part of the swing, but it's not a major shallower the way I look at it.

On distance from the ball. So at setup it is neutral - lean club back and shallow cause face is further from ball - lean forward and it gets closer so steep. That is the basic idea? And when at the top as I mentioned laid off - shallow, down the line, neutral, and across the line steep.

Here's my version of the basic idea - https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/defining-steep-and-shallow-understand-swing-plane/

One more question on shallowing. I understand the definition of determining a shallow versus steep movement, what I don't have a good understanding of is how one determines if a given position is shallow, steep, or neutral (I assume there would be a neutral position from which other two are judged) Like the kinematic sequence graphs that depict the angular velocity of different body segments and can have an associated angular position graph. So how does one determine, given any golfer and club position, if it is shallow, etc? Seems like a lot of it is I know it when I see it .

Here is an example - player certainly is moving to shallow but are they and were they in a steep position? Seems to be in a steep position at the top mainly due to lack of sufficient depth - is the club head position relative to the body a determiner of position, steep? Just trying to understand guidelines.

Hi Guy,

Thanks for the question, I'm sure a lot of other golfers have similar questions. I hope that at some point we have a number we can reference (neutral) and you can quickly see if you are steeper or shallower than that. I think the challenge in writing the formula for this is the 3D nature of the swing. Here's a video going around of Jon Rahm. You'll see that he strikes the ball, and then the ground a couple of frames later. He barely takes any divot.

How is that relevant?

The low point would influence the shallow/steep ideal as much as the angle of the shaft.

In general, in transition, amateurs are steep in shaft pitch, but narrower in width than pros. The picture you posted is a good example of this. The angle is more vertical, but there is a good chance that the location of the club is further behind the ball than a pro at the same location. So neutral would depend on a few factors.

The one factor we haven't discussed is intended ball flight. A draw vs a fade would probably have different "neutral" numbers. And if you move the low point forward or backward, that would also likely change the neutral value. I would say neutral is close to the shaft plane (DTL), but also a certain width from the golf ball (FO).

What I currently do is look at a given position and add it up in my head. If the club is close to on plane, but the body movements are mostly shallow, then the arm motion must be steep (and vice versa). Or another way, from any given position, would a good swing require the addition of more steeps or shallows? That's a little more detailed than "I know it when I see it" but I recognize that it's not a clearly defined answer either.

So in the example of the picture you posted, the club is obviously more vertical than the shaft plane (so it's steep in that sense) but we can't see the width unless we also look at the face on. How steep it is would be a cool number to get, but to be useful, you'd have to break it down into each piece. In the example you posted, it appears that golfer is steep because of the thoracic spine and shoulder blade motion, but it could be some shoulder motion as well as a lack of depth (shallowness) at the top of the swing.

Thanks for the reply. I came to the same conclusion as you on the complexity of the factors when assessing whether a given position can be called steep or shallow. I speculate that the fsp may be the basis for assessing position - that is, deviation from the extended fsp of both the hands and the club head - though I imagine even this approach will have it's limits. I'm retaking Dr Kwon's certification later this month and I think this would be a good area to question.

I think that's a good starting point, but I would be curious to Dr. Kwon's opinion as well as how to handle it from above the FSP (ie. in transition).